弟子：有另外一個問題。師父說第一戒，不殺生。師父講的只有眾生或者動物，沒有談到植物。果微對於植物有特別的想法。他說植物有它們的八識，高度比很多眾生更高。他覺得植物能夠感受到「怕」的這種感覺。植物也會認識人，也有感覺，是不是？它們八識或者六識好像到處都在。這是果微的感想，科學試驗過。比方說一個植物，把它割了，另外一個植物離得很遠很遠，也受到這個痛苦，就是同時同受。他說他覺得植物好像有情感的感覺，所以他對於殺動物和殺植物的感覺是差不多一樣的。他要問人在世間應該怎麼生活，這樣子不殺生？
上人：有生命的生靈叫有情，這一切的植物叫無情。土、木、瓦、石，就像那石頭，你看它是無情的，但是它都是活的；但是它那活的，就是少一點，不是具足的，不像人有八識。它雖然也有感覺，但是它不具足的，所以這叫頑石。雖然是頑石，但都有情感。怎麼證明呢？
在中國有個道生法師，在虎丘山那個地方講《涅槃經》。有人問那個《涅槃經》前半部說的闡提無佛性，這個道生法師就說闡提也有佛性。當時他那麼講，所有的法師都反對他，說經上明明講闡提無佛性，你怎麼可以說有佛性呢？就叫所有的人不要聽他講經。他就到山裡頭對著石頭講，說，「我說闡提有佛性，對不對？」這個頑石就點頭。這叫頑石點頭。「生公說法，頑石點頭。」由這個證明，就是無情的，也有佛性。
但是在世界上怎麼樣生存呢？要是詳細來說，你就吃植物也是殺生，不過輕一點。你如果不吃呢，你自己也不會活著。吃植物比較沒有那麼傷慈悲心，慈悲心不那麼受傷。你要是很顯明地殺生去吃生靈的肉，這對自己的慈悲心是受傷的，就是生瞋恨心，沒有慈悲心；慈悲心就輕一點，瞋恨心就重一點。他問這個問題都很難答覆的，很不容易的。是嗎？
有什麼證明植物也有生命呢？它沒有血，沒有氣。就這個人參，要是人參過了一千五百年他會變成人形，變成一個小孩子各處跑的，這叫參仙。
弟子：有的人的看法是吃一碗飯，你就殺了碗裡那麼多粒穀的生命。你吃肉的話，比方吃一隻鹿，你只殺了一個生命。
上人：一個動物的身上有百千萬億那麼多的植物，沒有數量那麼多，這植物就是由那個動物那兒分開的。為什麼它去作植物？就因為它不信佛教。這一切的畜生又是由人這兒分開的。這一個人要是變畜生的時候，可以變十幾個畜生，所以它就愚癡了。人的靈分開做畜生，畜生的靈又分開，分作最小最小的時候就作植物去了。那個植物所有的那個感覺，就是由原來那個畜生那兒分去的。那麼雖然那麼多，但是集中起來也沒有一個畜生那麼多，也沒有你吃一口向那麼多。你看著它是那麼多，但是不夠那一個畜生那樣多。
好像就一粒米來說。這個植物的百千萬粒米，也不夠畜生肉的一粒米的那種性那麼多。為什麼這樣說？你要是開了五眼的人，你看就知道了；沒有開五眼，沒有「眼睛」的人，怎麼說你也不懂的。怎樣說你也不相信，因為你沒有作那個植物呢。懂了沒有？他說什麼？
弟子：不一定。
上人：是啊，不一定。我知道他不一定。好像蚊蟲，你看牠千千萬萬在整個山上，這麼多蚊蟲這只是或者一個人的靈性變得這麼多。不是說是一個人的靈性就變成一個蚊蟲，一個人會變無量無邊那麼多蚊蟲，這叫性化靈殘。性化靈殘，化做最小最小作植物了，所以那個不同的。
並且那個植物，好像草，它也有生命。春天生，它到時候就死了。它壽命短。畜生壽命長；你如果不殺牠牠可以活很久很久。至於那個米，你就殺不殺它，它是那麼短短的時間，它到時候就死了。
所以這裡邊，你要是分析起來是有很多的道理可以研究的，科學也沒有法子研究清楚。不要講了，越講人家越不相信。
弟子：最高的喇嘛就是西藏的達賴喇嘛。他是吃肉的，因為他們住的環境是很冷的。好像對治吃肉，他們有什麼辦法？
上人：他們問這麼多的問題，是不是他不能停止吃肉？
弟子：果微他實在是已經二十多年來，問他自己這個問題；在他心裡討論，想這個問題。實在他說吃肉可以，不吃肉也可以，他就是要看水平高度，多大？
待續 |
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Disciple: As to the precept against taking life as it relates to not eating meat, I want to ask how we can live without taking life. Plants, for example, seem to have a higher consciousness than most animals. They have a consciousness that's everywhere at once. They display emotions such as fear and recognize individuals. Personally I don't feel any more comfortable eating plants than I do eating animals. According to scientific experiments, you can pinch one plant here and its partner will feel the pain at exactly the same time even though it is a thousand miles away. Since they have emotions, how can we kill and eat them any more easily than we can kill and eat animals? How can we stay alive in this world?
Venerable Master: That which has a life is said to be "sentient." Plants are said to be "insentient." This includes the earth, wood, rocks, and minerals. Rocks may appear insentient, but they are alive. Their "life" is a bit less, however; it's not as complete, and they cannot be compared with human beings, who have eight consciousnesses. Although we can say that plants have some sort of awareness, it is incomplete. That's why we have the term, "senseless rocks." Although they are said to be senseless, they actually do have emotional feelings. What proof is there?
In China, Dharma Master Daosheng lectured on the Nirvana Sutra at Huqiu Mountain. The first half of the Nirvana Sutra said that icchantikas, that is, unbelievers, did not have the Buddha nature. Dharma Master Daosheng said, "Icchantikas also have the Buddha nature." When he said that, all the other Dharma Masters objected. "The Sutra plainly says that icchantikas don't have the Buddha nature; how can you say that they do?" and they told everyone to avoid his lectures. So he went up to Huqiu Mountain and lectured to the rocks. He addressed them, saying, "I say that icchantikas have the Buddha nature. What do you say?" At that point the rocks nodded their heads! It is said,
When Sheng, the Venerable, spoke the Dharma,
Even the rocks nodded their heads.
This proves that insentient things, such as rocks, also have the Buddha nature.
Well, then, how can one remain alive in this world? If you were to be very strict in your interpretation, then even eating plants is killing. But it's a bit less serious. If you did not eat, you could not stay alive. "Killing" vegetables is less offensive to one's compassionate sensibilities than wantonly killing animals for food. Killing animals creates thoughts of hatred, not of compassion. Your compassion grows lighter while your hatred increases. His question is pretty tough to answer.
Since plants have no blood or breath, how can we prove that they have "life"? Ginseng, for example, after 1500 years can turn into a human being. It can transform into a child and run around. These transformations are called "ginseng immortals."
Disciple: In some people's view, when you eat one bowl of rice, you take the life of all the grains of rice, whereas eating the meat of, say, one deer, you take only one animal's life.
Venerable Master: On the body of one single animal are a hundred thousand, in fact several million little organisms. These organisms are fragments of what was once an animal. Why did they become organism? Because they did not believe in Buddhism.
All animals are fragments of the consciousnesses of people. The spirit of a human being at death may split up to become many animals. One person can become about ten animals. That's why animals are so stupid. The spirit of an animal can split up and become, in its smallest division, an organism or plant. The feelings which plants have, then, are what separated from the animal's spirit when it split up at death. Although the life force of a large number of plants may appear sizeable, it is not as great as that of a single animal or a single mouthful of meat. Take, for example, rice: tens of billions of grains of rice do not contain as much life force as a bit of meat the size of a grain of rice. If you open your Five Eyes, you can know this at a glance. If you haven't opened your Eyes, no matter how one tries to explain it to you, you won't understand. No matter how it's explained, you won't believe it, because you haven't been a plant! Do you understand?
Disciple: Not for sure.
Venerable Master: I know you aren't sure. Another example is the mosquitoes. The millions of mosquitoes on this mountain may simply be the spirit of one person which has transformed into all those bugs. It's not the case that a single human spirit turns into a single mosquito. One person can turn into limitless, boundless numbers of mosquitoes.
At death, the nature changes, the spirit scatters, and its smallest fragments become plants. Thus, there is a difference between eating plants and eating animals. What is more, plants have very short lifespans.
The grass, for example, is born in the spring and dies within months. Animals live a long time. If you don't kill them, they'll live for many years. Rice, regardless of the conditions, will only live a short time. So, if you really look into it, there are many factors to consider, and even science hasn't got it straight. Okay, that's all I'm going to say. The more I say, the more you will disbelieve.
Disciple: The Dalai Lama, the highest lama in Tibet, eats meat, because Tibet is a very cold place. What is his view on eating meat?
Venerable Master: Are you asking these questions because you can't stop eating meat?
Disciple: I've been asking myself this question for twenty years now. I can eat meat, and I can also not eat meat. I believe it's a matter of degree.
To be continued |
